• About TWIM


    The Warfare Is Mental (TWIM) reflects the mental warfare of an author, screenwriter, publisher and member of the Writer's Guild of America. Family, friends, health, humor, art, music, science, faith, fun and knowledge are some of the things that are important to me.



    TWIM is the first and only theist blog listed on the Atheist Blogroll, which currently contains over 1,000 blogs. It goes without saying that I don't endorse hardly any of the views of any of them. Contact Mojoey for more information.



    Ironically, TWIM won an award for "Best Atheist / Skeptic Site" from this site. Much obliged.



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    You and your commenters are a feast of thinking — great stuff.

    -C.L. Dyck
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I have no need to engage with racists, so will ignore cl’s further diatribes.

    -faithlessgod,
     CommonSenseAtheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    cl resists following through on a thought even to provide a solid opposing position, and thus stifles many conversations. It’s a shame since it seems like cl has some brain power that could be applied to the topics at hand.

    -Hermes,
     CommonSenseAtheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    [faithlessgod and Hermes] fit my definition of trolling. I didn’t take any of those attacks against you seriously, and quickly categorized them as trolls.

    -JS Allen,
     CommonSenseAtheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    [cl] is, as many have noticed, a master of this warfare. I’ve been following him for quite some time and he’s one of the most effective Christian trolls out there. No one can completely destroy a conversation as effectively as he does, and with such masterful grace and subtly that he rarely gets banned. This isn’t a blunt-force “U R Hitler!” troll, this is the Yoda of trolling.

    -Eneasz,
     CommonSenseAtheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    This seems to imply that cl is, at least in part, disingenuous in terms of how he responds/what he claims. Is this most likely true, supported by evidence, or merely a subjective claim?

    -al friedlander,
     CommonSenseAtheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ...I wanted to get a message to you outside of the context of specific discussions on CSA. You make good, insightful contributions to that site, and since I often agree with you I'm glad there is someone else there defending my positions better than I sometimes can. However I don't think anything of value would be lost if you stopped engaging in personal combat with juvenile snipers.

    -Zeb,
     CommonSenseAtheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Thank you for your wonderful response - so reasoned in the race of [Waldvogel's] blustering.

    -Annie Laurie Gaylor
     Freedom From Religion Foundation
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Thanks for a great Op-Ed.

    -Marianne Ratcliff
     VC Star
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ...as atheists we need to make sure that someone like cl and any Christian readers of [An Apostate's Chapel] don’t come away with the perception that the atheists caved in or were incapable of responding. I’m sure that a lot of Christians who find cl incomprehensible at times and don’t even bother reading him themselves will come away with an assumption that cl is that sort of rare intellectual theist who can prove that gods exist. And that’s how those inane rumors about the feared xian intellectuals start…

    -bbk
     An Apostate's Chapel
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    You are in so over your head here, you are embarrassing yourself...
    I am well versed in many aspects of evolution biology, through my academic background, and my professional life. Unless your academic degrees and background match mine, cease and desist. Return to philosophy and rhetoric, or whatever it is you perceive your strengths to be. They are definitely not science, even at the high school level.

    -R.C. Moore
     Evangelical Realism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    You're doing a fine job.

    -Prof. Larry Moran
     Dept. of Biochemistry
     University of Toronto
     re: R.C. Moore & others
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Phyletic change and vicariance (or, drift and selection versus population isolation), as cl points out, are much better ways of describing what are unfortunately more commonly known as micro- and macro- evolution, respectively.

    -Dan
     Biology postdoc
     Univ. of Cyprus
     re: R.C. Moore & others
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    cl says, “The minute you call yourself a Christian or an Atheist or whatever the heck else, you automatically get painted by other people’s interpretations of those words, which are almost always different and almost always distorted.” cl’s point couldn’t be more on. As cl points out there is an important reason for not claiming any real religious (or lack thereof) belief. It puts logical constraints on one's arguments due directly to the bias of the individual that is translating the English to mind ideas of what it means to be religious.

    -Bobaloo
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Just who in the bloody hell do you think you are, you Christian piece of garbage, to come here barking out orders? You're an arrogant, condescending piece of shit. You seem to think you're an intellectual of sorts, when all you are is a Christian who's read a few books. John, everyone, this really is the limit. BR, I'm more than a little annoyed that you continue to engage him. I'm out of here. I have better things to do than to waste my time with these cretins.

    -Cipher
     Debunking Christianity
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    How old are you CL? I'd guess you have not yet experienced much life. I'd say you were under the age of 21, too young to be here. I don't give a damn what you think of me or my deconversion at all. You're too stupid to realize that regardless of it you must deal with the arguments in the book. They are leading people away from you [sic] faith. I'm seriously considering banning you cl, as I've heard you were banned on other sites. You are much too ignorant for us to have a reasonable discussion.

    -John Loftus
     Debunking Christianity
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I admired the way you handled yourself in the discussion on John's blog. I'm not patient enough to keep my sarcasm in check with some of them blokes, but appreciate those who are.

    -David Marshall
     re: Debunking Christianity
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    cl, I have to say, while I fundamentally disagree with you, you are an individual which I highly respect. I think your responses are always well thought out and your insights always well thought out and pertinently derived.
    [Y]ou have made me a stronger atheist in my regards to critical thinking and debating. I really can’t wait to hear more from you. Hell, I’d even buy you a drink, good sir. Cheers!

    -Parker
     Evangelical Realism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Bottom line? Sometimes I think he's right about certain arguments, and I don't have a problem admitting that. Other times, however, I think he's wrong, and I've called him on that. But I have found he can be pretty reasonable if you (1) don't overstate your case, (2) make concessions when you have, and (3) insist he do the same.

    -Lifeguard
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I like it when [cl] makes me stop, think and question if I am making unfounded assertions or if I am being sloppy. What has been annoying me about cl of late is that he is being excruciatingly anal...

    -seantheblogonaut
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I really can't thank you enough for catching me on my error in rhetoric. I always love a good debate! And I always enjoy your posts, as well! Keep up the great writing and the excellent eye for detail!

    -BZ
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    You make me smarter...

    -Mike G.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ..thank you, cl. I discovered your blog on a random web search and saw it as an oasis amidst a vast desert of seemingly intractable theist-atheist debate.

    -Sung Jun
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    It's good to be able to discuss with people who are open and respectful, and know that disagreement does not mean disrespect... You are to be congratulated, not only for your patience, but also your ability to hold an ever-growing debate together with an impressive degree of structure.

    -Ritchie
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    My tone is derogatory... [cl is] ignorant and credulous and deserves to be mocked... In the time he's been here, he's shown a consistent pattern of antagonizing everyone he comes in contact with, monopolizing threads, derailing discussions with perpetual complaints, quibbles and demands for attention, and generally making arguments that display a lack of good faith and responsiveness... it's become intolerable. I'm not banning him, but I'm putting in place some restrictions on how often he can comment.

    -Ebonmuse
     Daylight Atheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    This is no defense of the annoying cl, but what a self-righteous, prissy atheist you turned out to be, Ebonmuse. I'm disappointed in you, stealing a strategem from the theists.

    -The Exterminator
     to Ebonmuse
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I certainly didn't get any bad impression about cl, and I can't relate his comments with any of the things (Ebonmuse) said above. I actually thought it was quite interesting to have him around.

    -Juan Felipe
     Daylight Atheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Please continue to allow
    cl to post his views and make it clear that he is still welcome. And let me be clear, cl is not a lunatic.

    -Curtis
     Daylight Atheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    With one exception, you are the most coherent and intelligent theist I've seen on this site...

    -Steve Bowen
     Daylight Atheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I'm rooting for cl. I hope he perpetually manages to skirt the rules enough to do his damage, forcing rule revision after rule revision, ad nauseum. Awesome! Let's watch as Ebon, ever more frustrated, continues to struggle to figure out how to keep his precious private blog neat and tidy as cl keeps messing up his papers while one by one, readers leave due to an every increasing administrative presence. Outstanding! Well I won't go. The thought of this sounds like the most entertaining thing that probably would have ever happened on Daylight Atheism. Hot damn!

    -PhillyChief
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Your visit has been something of a reality check to me. It seems that when you present rational arguments and criticisms, many commenters feel territory slipping and then work up vaporous or leaky responses. I also want to remark that your presence here has considerably moved me to try being a more careful and understanding debater...

    -Brad
     Daylight Atheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I do have a lot of respect for you too. You seem to be a very intelligent and thoughtful individual with a knack for getting to the bottom of a problem, cutting through all the bullshit rhetoric on the way down. The fact that many other atheists seem to unreasonably despise you bothers me a lot, because I think that maybe they aren’t acting in good faith.

    -Peter Hurford
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I am not going to waste any more time parsing your comments to decide if they've crossed the line or not... So I banned you.

    -Greta Christina
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Be rude... cl invites rudeness. Would you want an incontinent little puppy coming into your house?

    -(((Billy))) the Atheist
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Note to all my regular readers: Since An Apostate’s Chapel is a free-speech zone, I don’t censor conversations.
    As it appears that cl is a troll, please note that I will not be responding to him any longer. I ask that you refrain from doing so, as well. Please don’t feed the troll!

    -The Chaplain
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    …I can’t reconcile being a "freethinker" with banning speech. [cl's] comments are not offensive in the normal understanding of that term, and he poses absolutely no threat except perhaps to some imagined decorum. Why can’t atheists lighten up, for no-Christ’s sake?

    -The Exterminator
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Is it going to distract from my meal when crazy uncle cl starts blathering out nonsense, pick his ears with a carrot or start taking his pants off? No. In fact, it might actually heighten the experience in some amusing way. So no, I don't see cl's work as damage.

    -PhillyChief
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I am beginning to suspect that you are a troll cl. Albeit an evolved troll, but a troll nonetheless. Perhaps we should all stop feeding the troll?

    -GaySolomon
     Evangelical Realism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    [cl is] is either a sophist or an incompetent when it comes to the english language... (sic)

    -ThatOtherGuy
     Evangelical Realism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I’d say cl is pretty sharp... it may be tempting at times to think that “the other guy” is arguing out of some personal character flaw rather than a sincere desire to acknowledge the truth, I still think it’s better to debate respectfully... It is disrespectful to make unsupported accusations against people, e.g. by suggesting that their views are caused by an intrinsically corrupt and immoral nature.

    -Deacon Duncan, 3-9-09
     Evangelical Realism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    [cl] cannot refute my facts, so he needs must find (sic) some scapegoat in order to claim that he has confronted the enemy and proven them wrong... cl, sadly, has proven himself to be the sort of guest who comes into your living room and sneaks behind your couch to take a crap on the floor, just so he can tell all your neighbors how bad your house smells and what an unsanitary housekeeper you are... an interesting case study in the negative effects a Christian worldview has on a reasonably intellectual mind.

    -Deacon Duncan, 6-17-09
     Evangelical Realism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I strongly discourage discussion of the character, abilities, motives, or personal ancestry of individual commenters, as tempting as such comments may be at times. I discourage the posting of comments that make frequent use of the pronoun “you,” as in “you always…” or “you never…” or “you are just so…”, when directed at a specific individual.

    -Deacon Duncan, 4-9-09
     Evangelical Realism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I won’t be publishing your most recent comment because it’s a return to the same sort of schtick you’ve pulled here before: re-writing other people’s arguments to make yourself look misunderstood and/or unfairly accused, taking “polyvalent” positions so that when people address your points you can claim to have said something else, distorting other people’s arguments, trolling for negative reactions, and so on.

    -Deacon Duncan, 10-8-09
     Evangelical Realism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    [E]gomaniacal troll.
    You win... You’re a disingenuous sophist through and through, cl. And a friggin’ narcissist to boot! Since I’ve thoroughly and purposefully broken the Deacon’s rules of engagement, I shall consider my right to post henceforth annulled, and move on - dramatic pause, lights out.

    -jim
     Evangelical Realism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    He either thinks in a very weird way or he's quite the con artist.

    -mikespeir
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I will gladly admit that I have a boner for cl. Maybe some day I’ll even earn a place of honor on cl’s Blog of Infamy.

    -Eneasz
     Evangelical Realism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Long time reader first time poster... I like reading what you
    have to say over at Daylight Atheism so I figured I'd pop in here.

    -Pine
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    He's just a jerk
    that likes to argue.

    -KShep
     Daylight Atheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    You’re not a reasonable thinker in my book. You’re simply an arguer, for better or worse. I’m Michael Palin, you’re John Cleese. You’re just a disputation-ist, bringing everything into question...

    -jim
     Reason vs. Apologetics
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Motherfucker, this is an interesting blog... Quite the group of commenters.

    -John Evo
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    You are very articulate, and I can only assume that it's a result of high intelligence; an intelligence that's interested in, and can understand, healthy debate. However, at every turn, that's not what I or others seem to get.

    -ex machina
     Daylight Atheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    You are a troll, a liar, and a useless sack of shit. Not only that, but you're still wrong even after moving the goal posts and trying to re-write history. So, you can stop cyber stalking me now and trying to provoke me. I know what you are doing, and you are doing it so that you can whine about how I'm being irrational and mean to you and stroke your pathetic martyr complex. You're a pathetic attention whore and I've already given you too much attention. So, back the fuck off, stop following me around the intarwebs and trying to provoke me, and fuck off.

    -OMGF
     Daylight Atheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I would just like to say that, OMGF, having read the debate as a neutral observer, some of the things cl says about your style of argument are true, IMO. It is quite hasty, which means you occasionally haven't got the central point cl is trying to make...

    -John D.
     Daylight Atheism
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ...this is a difficult question that deserves more than a kneejerk reaction, not to imply that you're kneejerking. You're the least kneejerking person I've met.

    -Quixote
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    If you’re here playing devil’s advocate, then, hey, you do a great job at it, it’s a service, keep us sharp... You’re a smart guy, but those are exactly the ones who give the worst headaches!

    -Lifeguard
     An Apostate's Chapel
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    You are a waste of time, cl. A big fat black hole of bullshit sucking in everyone who comes into contact with you.

    -Spanish Inquisitor
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    As for all that harsh invective that's come your way, umm... I gotta say, I've seen some of the invective, but I haven't seen the behavior on your part that called for it. Maybe I've just not seen enough? I don't know... from what I've read, I can tell that you're a smart person, and whether you deserved any of that treatment or not is quite frankly immaterial to me; I just want to deal with the smart person at the eye of that storm.

    -D
     She Who Chatters
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I now think that you’re an atheist, just having fun at other atheists’ expense. If that’s the case, kudos.

    -The Exterminator
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

The Biblical Distinction Between Soul And Spirit: My Response To A Ghost In The Machine, I

Ebonmuse has on his site another much-talked-about essay titled A Ghost In The Machine which is a valiant argument against Cartesian duality, or the generally-theist idea that humans have a soul substance that can survive or somehow transcend the death of the physical body. While leaving a comment in the thread of On Expertise I noticed another comment by Heliobates which read,

“…if you want to read what I consider to be THE SLAM DUNK argument against theism, check out our host’s A Ghost In The Machine. Without Cartesian dualism, religion is dead in the water.”

To this I responded,

“IMO the error… is in assuming all religion dependent upon the Cartesian paradigm. Yes, I can and will offer a detailed counter-explanation, but it is far beyond the scope of the thread..”

So here we are. I said I would offer a detailed counter-explanation, and now I’ve got to stick to my word.

OVERVIEW

A Ghost In The Machine (AGITM) is no quick read, nor is it something any intellectual theist should skim lightly and toss aside. Due to the length and divergent nature
of the piece, if I want to be taken seriously I’ll likely have to address it in parts.

For today, I wish simply to show that the author’s ignorance of accessible biblical knowledge renders the majority of his argument a straw man, either-or fallacy. What I mean by this is that although I might agree with the argument from mind-brain unity and even the general conclusion of the piece, since as a theist I am not advocating dualism in the first place, the impact and relevance of AGITM to my particular theistic belief system is greatly diminished.

I did spend the better half of twenty-four hours digesting AGITM, and although in a writer’s context I’ll say it’s a most cohesive, well-written and wonderfully entertaining piece with a near-seamless progression of pertinent and well-supported facts, by no means do I agree with all or even most of the conclusions; I feel the piece contains pivotal misunderstandings of religion that will not merit the Courtier’s Reply, and I do not consider it a “slam dunk” against theism. I don’t even consider it a slam dunk against dualism, and this is not to say I particularly care for the dualist paradigm. I also have a few suggestions that I feel would strengthen the argument from mind-brain unity; in particular, I would upgrade the argument to mind-body unity and add that one need not even perturb brain matter to evoke demonstrable and predictable changes in soulical expression, i.e. the well-documented tonsillectomy studies of the Italian brothers Calderelli. Incidentally, I find their work a challenge to the classical interpretation of tonsils as useless or vestigial, although the two are by no means synonymous. I say this only because I have heard people defend tonsillectomies on evolutionary grounds.

The author’s is an outlined, 5-Part essay with significant sub-sections, case studies and tangential musings. The main point seems to come in the second paragraph:

“..there is strong evidence against the existence of a soul in humans, pointing instead to the alternative of materialism – that the mind is not separate from the brain, but that it arises from and is produced by neural activity within the brain. Simply stated, the mind is what the brain does…” (ital. mine)

In the final paragraph of Part One, the author’s conclusion, strategy and thesis are further clarified and summarized as to show that,

“…not only is there no evidence for the existence of the soul, but that there is strong positive evidence against the existence of the soul, deploying an argument I have styled the argument from mind-brain unity.”

Although I do not think AGITM successfully defeats dualism, it is not my intent to defend Descartes’ dualist paradigm or get mired down in philosophical bantering, nor is it my intent to counter the author’s overall thesis in one broad stroke. My intent, at least from the outset of the examination, is three-fold, and also beyond the scope of a single post:

A. To show how the author’s misunderstanding of fairly clear and accessible biblical teaching substantially undermines the argument (and not in a superficial manner that would merit the Courtier’s);

B. To show how the author’s misinterpretations of clear and accessible biblical teaching concerning both the soul and salvation have strong bearing on the value judgments inherent in the argument; and

C. To show that the author’s complete lack of address regarding the biblical tripartite model relegates the entire argument, no matter how eloquently crafted, to the status of an either-or fallacy, where the reader is forced to choose between limited options when other viable options clearly exist. In other words, the author permits us only a discussion of dualism vs. materialism, and nowhere is the reader even told that a tripartite model exists.

THE TRIPARTITE NATURE OF MAN

Contrary to being a matter of inconsequence or esoterics, let us consider this important differentiation between spirit and soul that we offer. The author begins Part Two with an interesting complaint:

“Remarkably, I have yet to find any theist source which explains (what the soul does).”

In stating such, the author reveals unfamiliarity with scripture. Although the Bible does not give a detailed, scientific, or even satisfying account of what our soul does, scripture contains several passages that generally describe what our soul is, and more importantly, what our soul is not. The Bible makes a clear distinction between soul and spirit, and the biblical depiction of a human being is tripartite, not dualistic. Reasonable biblical exegesis does not permit the argument that humans are dualist entities. Consider 1 Thessalonians 5:23 which reads,

“May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless…”

We can reasonably deduce from Paul’s words that the whole person consists of spirit and soul and body. Hebrews 4:12 makes a similar distinction that is also explicitly tripartite. These positions are further consistent with the idea expressed in Genesis that man was created in God’s image; remember, so long as we are in a biblical context, the God in question is also posited to be tripartite. Whether we approve them or not, at a bare minimum we must concede that these are instances of internal consistency from both the Old and New Testaments on the matter.

Under the tripartite model, soul is the product of the union between spirit and body, and perturbations in either spirit or body can and often do lead to perturbations of soul. As the light needs both a conduit and an impetus to shine, a human needs both a body and spirit to have soul. Electricity (spirit) needs scaffolding (body) through which it can flow to produce any singular instance along the spectrum of electromagnetic energy we call light (soul). Also, light (soul) can either extinguish via damage to the scaffolding (body) through which electricity (spirit) flows, and equally when electricity (spirit) is disconnected from the scaffolding (body).

At any rate, several word combinations the author uses indicate misunderstanding regarding the biblical teaching on the soul, and nowhere in AGITM has the author even considered the tripartite model. For example,

“Did the blast of the iron on that morning in 1848 knock Gage’s soul out of his head?”

To this I would respond of course not, but the severity of physical damage Phineas Gage sustained that summer day in 1848 surely obliterated portions of his scaffolding (body) that are crucial in the proper transference and expression of light (soul). Our author also asks,

“After all, if there is an immortal soul, why would it be subordinate to flawed biology?”

Though in the context above Ebonmuse uses ‘soul’ where I would use ‘spirit,’ excepting instances of divine sustenance or spiritual provocation, the soul must be subordinate to matter, because at any given time the soul (light) is the product of the union between body (scaffolding) and spirit (electricity). Thus, reasonable biblical exegesis permits the idea that a human being represents a dynamic interaction between spirit, soul and body, and Ebonmuse has missed this point entirely. Clearly not a slam-dunk, and arguably not even a complete argument.

In short, no matter how well-written, well-detailed or how many sources are cited, a piece can hardly be a slam dunk against theism if not all theist positions are evaluated. AGITM, though persuasive, good, well-supported writing, is NOT a slam dunk against theism. At the bare minimum, today’s introductory post establishes legitimate grounds that AGITM’s ignorance of the tripartite model (at least temporarily) renders the entire argument, no matter how wonderfully crafted, an either-or fallacy.

Without claiming to know all that which is capable, I do claim the fact of brain damage or stimulation which results in predictable and often curable behavioral changes in no way supports the conclusion that behavior and consciousness itself are by-products solely of the brain. As living souls, we are the interaction of body and spirit. Either end of the transaction can be damaged, resulting in various effects to soulical expression, which is consciousness and our sense of self.

However damning to Cartesian dualism, which is itself a matter of debate, AGITM offers little if any challenge to the biblical model as hitherto explained.

6 Responses

  1. Bravo, cl.
    If you don’t mind. I’m going to wait for the follow-up articles before I respond specifically to some of the points you raise. I wouldn’t want to tie you up with points you were going to address anyway.

  2. Hey thanks and no problem.. I just hope I can get around to them in a reasonable time frame before we all forget what the heck we’re arguing about..

  3. I too have been looking forward to your response to AGITM, and await your followups. But I am not able to withhold myself completely for this overview, like heliobates has ;)
    I hope in the sequel you can provide a clear definition/distinction between “spirit” and “soul”. This is the first time I’ve encountered such a distinction, and so far I’m still very confused. I hope it will be cleared up.
    It seems to me from your analogy that you are going to define the “soul” as the emergent result of the “spirit” and “body”. And I’m guessing that the “spirit” is not going to be a materialistic thing, otherwise you would be agreeing with AGITM that the “soul” is just a direct consequence of materialistic phenomena. So I look forward to seeing what this “spirit” thing is supposed to be.
    BTW, just so I don’t step out of bounds: is your purpose to simply show that there exists a model that is Biblically supported and still consistent with the facts in AGITM? Or is your purpose here to also defend that model and argue against the materialist explanation?

  4. Hello Mike..
    You said,

    “It seems to me from your analogy that you are going to define the “soul” as the emergent result of the “spirit” and “body”.”

    Exactly. To repeat,

    “Under the tripartite model, soul is the product of the union between spirit and body, and perturbations in either spirit or body can and often do lead to perturbations of soul. As the lightbulb needs both a conduit and an impetus to produce light, so a human needs a body and spirit to produce soul.

    You also said,

    “I’m guessing that the “spirit” is not going to be a materialistic thing, otherwise you would be agreeing with AGITM that the “soul” is just a direct consequence of materialistic phenomena.”

    AGITM’s thesis is that the soul is a direct consequence of brain, and that the neurological evidence best supports materialism / atheism. I don’t profess to know the composition of spirit; however, presupposing the spirit were material, this would still not support the main thesis of AGITM, which, if I understand it correctly, holds that “we are our brains.”
    As for,

    “..is your purpose to simply show that there exists a model that is Biblically supported and still consistent with the facts in AGITM?”

    That’s part of it. I tried to mention other strategies in points A, B, and C above. Any essay, no matter how well-crafted, still falls prey to the either-or / straw man fallacies if it only addresses incomplete, incorrect or misunderstood interpretations of theism. As such, IMO, AGITM is not the persuasive slam dunk against theism that many of its proponents seem to think.

  5. Thanks for your reply. I will freely grant that this tripartite model seems much more logically coherent than dualism, in the sense that it acknowledges that changes in the brain can affect our “selves”. So if your purpose is to demonstrate only that theology can be reconciled with brain-mind unity, fine.

    … presupposing the spirit were material, this would still not support the main thesis of AGITM, which, if I understand it correctly, holds that “we are our brains.”

    I don’t know how hypothetical you are being here about a material spirit. But for all intents and purposes, an observable material phenomenon interacting with the brain, thus in the brain, is the brain. So saying “we’re more than just our brains” is a bit of word-play in this scenario. Unless you suppose the “spirit” has some other properties we haven’t gotten to yet (like divine influence, survival after death), but that seems like it would require dualism again — between “spirit” and the supernatural now, instead of between “brain” and supernatural.
    A non-material spirit also has its own problems. We’ve taken a model that explains things very well (“the brain does consciousness”) and added a superfluous supernatural agency (“the brain and the spirit do the soul”) that doesn’t appear to do anything except reconcile theological problems.
    Again, thanks for your patience. I’ll try really hard to leave it at that ;) — I don’t want to get too much into debating the correctness of this tripartite model, since you probably have considered these things. And you seem to be arguing more against the “nail in the coffin for theism” as opposed to arguing the scientific validity of your model.

  6. Mike, I can tell you’re a cool dood. I appreciate you coming by here and chatting me up.

    “..an observable material phenomenon interacting with the brain, thus in the brain, is the brain.”

    I’m not so sure I can accept this. Electricity is an observable material phenomenon. It interacts with the material circuitry in the lightbulb housing. By no means would we say that electricity is the housing.

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